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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan J on September 30, 2003, at 14:14:42
Hi, Larry,
Hope you don't mind my asking you directly, but everyone else seems to do it. :-)
I noticed you were talking to OEPS7 about Vitamin B complexes (50,100,150) and taking a B50 complex 3x a day.
My medical doctor recommended I take a Vitamin B50 complex once a day to help with lethargy and depression. I didn't know I could take more than that. Do you know if there are any side effects to taking such large doses of the B vitamins? I think they are all water soluable, which means, correct me if I'm wrong, that your body flushes out the excess it doesn't need instead of storing it in fat tissue?
Just wondering if there are any side effects to those large doses. Particularly whether they might decrease the effectiveness of other meds?
Thanks!
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 1, 2003, at 5:39:16
In reply to Question for Larry - B50 Complex, posted by Susan J on September 30, 2003, at 14:14:42
> Hi, Larry,
Hi, Susan. How are you?
> Hope you don't mind my asking you directly, but everyone else seems to do it. :-)Because I encourage it. You have my permission to join in. ;-)
> I noticed you were talking to OEPS7 about Vitamin B complexes (50,100,150) and taking a B50 complex 3x a day.
>
> My medical doctor recommended I take a Vitamin B50 complex once a day to help with lethargy and depression. I didn't know I could take more than that. Do you know if there are any side effects to taking such large doses of the B vitamins?Bright yellow urine.
> I think they are all water soluable, which means, correct me if I'm wrong, that your body flushes out the excess it doesn't need instead of storing it in fat tissue?
The exception is B12, which isn't really a B-vitamin at all, IMHO. It's a cobalt (metal) complex.
Conceptually, the idea that your body flushes out what it doesn't need, or the corollary, that high-dose B-vitamin supps merely make for expensive urine, are somewhat disingenuous, if not plainly misleading.
Your kidneys constantly filter the blood. They're kind of like a seive, actually. They retain red and white blood cells, transport proteins, and so on, while letting water and soluble stuff pass. That's the simple description. There are pumps which further process the crude urine, removing certain soluble things from the urine-to-be, by pumping them back into the blood. Water is extracted, too. For some reason, the kidneys are not set up to retain the B-vitamins (or vitamin C). So, the whole time they're in the blood, the kidneys are leaking them into the urine. The yellow pigment is riboflavin, and its presence in urine is proof that the B's are in the blood. Yellow urine is good. Here's why.
All your other tissues are separated from the blood by membranes. Bone, liver, muscle, neurons, you name it, there's a membrane that separates it from the blood. The blood is a reservoir, from which each tissue can draw up nutrients, but if a nutrient is not in the blood, the tissue compartments cannot get what they need. And, just because a substance has been in the blood at high concentration for a little while does not mean that each tissue got all that it wanted/needed before the stupid old kidneys let it all drain away into the urine. At the same time e.g. the brain is trying to take some up across the blood-brain barrier, the kidneys are happily wasting it away.
People can have enzyme or transporter defects that require far more than usual concentrations of B-vitamins (as activating co-factors) to work properly, and many people find that high-dose (i.e. many multiples of the RDA) B-vitamins help to overcome those defects.
> Just wondering if there are any side effects to those large doses.
I have looked long and hard for evidence of toxicity of B-vitamins. There are some people who are sensitive to high doses of e.g. B-6, developing neuropathies (tingling and numbness in the extremities, reversible on discontinuation) or such at doses that I recommend, but that's rare. And like I said, it reverses on discontinuation. The toxicity of megavitamin therapy, at least for the water-solubles, has been totally exaggerated. I found one case report where a woman developed neuropathy after taking 8-10 grams!!! per day of B6 for two years. Well, duh!
There is no inherent risk to taking even twenty times your B-50, except the risk of transient neuropathy. I don't recommend twenty times B-50, but I'd be very surprised if you had an adverse reaction to that dose, notwithstanding. So, go ahead and try three times a day B-50. What you'll do is give your tissues three chances a day, instead of one, to take up the vitamins in the blood before the kidneys let them trickle away.
> Particularly whether they might decrease the effectiveness of other meds?
If anything, my perception is that med effectiveness might increase. Everybody is unique, but I would expect a decrease in effectiveness to be an extraordinary outcome.
> Thanks!
>
> SusanYou're welcome. Take care,
Lar
Posted by Susan J on October 1, 2003, at 8:52:05
In reply to Re: Question for Larry - B50 Complex » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 1, 2003, at 5:39:16
Thanks, Larry,
My God, you should write a book. That stuff is fascinating to me!
> People can have enzyme or transporter defects that require far more than usual concentrations of B-vitamins (as activating co-factors) to work properly, and many people find that high-dose (i.e. many multiples of the RDA) B-vitamins help to overcome those defects.
<<Interesting. One of the things my doc said was that long-term birth control pill use could deplete my body of Vitamin Bs....is that the same thing? More like the hormones or whatever are messing up enzyme or transporters?>>e.g. B-6, developing neuropathies (tingling and numbness in the extremities, reversible on discontinuation)
<<I've had that on occasion in my hands. I can't positively link it specifically to the Bs, to bad posture at my desk, or to having gained weight (although now that my weight is back down, I don't have any tingling).
>>What you'll do is give your tissues three chances a day, instead of one, to take up the vitamins in the blood before the kidneys let them trickle away.
<<Cool. I like that.Thanks again,
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:44:18
In reply to Re: Question for Larry - B50 Complex » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 1, 2003, at 8:52:05
> Thanks, Larry,
>
> My God, you should write a book. That stuff is fascinating to me!You're not the first person to suggest that. ;-)
> > People can have enzyme or transporter defects that require far more than usual concentrations of B-vitamins (as activating co-factors) to work properly, and many people find that high-dose (i.e. many multiples of the RDA) B-vitamins help to overcome those defects.
> <<Interesting. One of the things my doc said was that long-term birth control pill use could deplete my body of Vitamin Bs....is that the same thing? More like the hormones or whatever are messing up enzyme or transporters?Messing up enzymes, and enhancing biochemical demand for B-vitamins. You use them up quicker.
> >>e.g. B-6, developing neuropathies (tingling and numbness in the extremities, reversible on discontinuation)
> <<I've had that on occasion in my hands. I can't positively link it specifically to the Bs, to bad posture at my desk, or to having gained weight (although now that my weight is back down, I don't have any tingling).Fatty deposits could have impinged on the nerves in the carpal tunnel, but carpal tunnel is often the first overt sign of hypothyroid (which also correlates with weight gain). The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone, metaphorically.
> >>What you'll do is give your tissues three chances a day, instead of one, to take up the vitamins in the blood before the kidneys let them trickle away.
> <<Cool. I like that.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> SusanYou're welcome. Keep asking question. I like it.
Lar
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